dispatches from TJICistan

14 Responses to “interesting article”

1. Bob Smith Says:
   December 28th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

   Sure. Just compare that to how Muslim Africans (in Nigeria, for example) act.

2. aaron Says:
   December 28th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

   Of course what happens when those nice Christians have to deal with a Muslim, Jew, or Atheist?

   There’s a lot of conflict going on in Africa on the basis of Christian vs. Muslim, I’m not sure move evangelical Christians is the answer.

3. Joseph Dart Says:
   December 28th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

   The multi-religious, multi-ethnic African countries like Nigeria, Sudan, and Ethiopia are, unsurprisingly, messes. (Except when they’re not, like Mauritius). Multi-religious, multi-ethnic European and Asian countries like Kazakhstan, Sri Lanka, or Yugoslavia have fared little better.

   But what about smaller countries that vaguely resemble proper nation-states? The only African country I’ve been to, Senegal, is largely Muslim and quite orderly given its poverty. I’m told Mali is similar. You will notice they don’t have a 25% AIDS infection rate like Botswana, or the wallets-to-wheelbarrows-style inflation of Zimbabwe, both heavily Christian countries. Of course, nor have they had a two-decade-long civil war like small, Muslim, mostly-Somali-speaking Somalia.

4. Bob Smith Says:
   December 29th, 2008 at 1:14 am

   Of course what happens when those nice Christians have to deal with a Muslim, Jew, or Atheist?

   Nothing. Where in Africa are Christians, Jews, or atheists engaged in murder, slavery, and religious conversion at gunpoint? Compare that to what Muslims are doing in Sudan, Nigeria, and Somalia, or the incessant tribal warfare between pagans throughout Africa. I’m sick of the false moral equivalence on display in your post.

5. Brian Dunbar Says:
   December 29th, 2008 at 12:58 pm

   I’m not sure move evangelical Christians is the answer.

   Better to be evangelical Christian than evangelical Muslim. They make better neighbors and they don’t declare holy war on the rest of the world.

6. aaron Says:
   December 30th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

   [quote comment="177098"]I’m not sure move evangelical Christians is the answer.

   Better to be evangelical Christian than evangelical Muslim. They make better neighbors and they don’t declare holy war on the rest of the world.[/quote]

   True but I’d still rather an evangelical nothing. I’m not saying that on average, that Christians are as violent as Muslims, but I have a lot of trouble seeing religion as a stabilizing force when it’s so often correlated with instability.

   Sure they are nice enough people and with aid workers particularly I can see the promise of divine rewards compensating for the lack of real life rewards, but the entire basis is on superstition and a culture built on denying reality is not going to function as smoothly as well as one with reality at its core.

7. Rick C Says:
   December 30th, 2008 at 4:18 pm

   [quote comment="177166"]
   Sure they are nice enough people and with aid workers particularly I can see the promise of divine rewards compensating for the lack of real life rewards, but the entire basis is on superstition and a culture built on denying reality is not going to function as smoothly as well as one with reality at its core.[/quote]

   Oh no you di’nt just plug the reality-based community.

8. ScottH Says:
   December 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

   [quote comment="177170"]

   Oh no you di’nt just plug the reality-based community.[/quote]

   Oh yes he did.

9. Noah D Says:
   December 30th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

   [quote comment="177166"]the entire basis is on superstition and a culture built on denying reality is not going to function as smoothly as well as one with reality at its core.[/quote]

   Could you cite some historical comparisons, please?

10. aaron Says:
    December 31st, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    [quote comment="177192"][quote comment="177166"]the entire basis is on superstition and a culture built on denying reality is not going to function as smoothly as well as one with reality at its core.[/quote]

    Could you cite some historical comparisons, please?[/quote]

    Dark ages vs Enlightenment.

    Strong modern correlation between societal levels of religiosity and violence.

    Communism vs. Capitalism, I know the soviet union was officially atheist, I mention this as I’d argue their economic system, which didn’t take into account human nature, was built on the denial of reality. I just wanted to emphasize religion wasn’t the only thought process that could deny reality.

    For a final point just look at the number of wackjobs involved with ID, UFOs, psychics, extreme environmentalism and the like.

    True, wacky areas do tend to attract wacky people. But there’s also the fact that when there aren’t solid facts at the foundation of your beliefs everything else becomes a little more unstable as a result.

11. tjic Says:
    December 31st, 2008 at 5:56 pm

    [quote comment="177225"]
    Strong modern correlation between societal levels of religiosity and violence.

    … I know the soviet union was officially atheist…built on the denial of reality.[/quote]

    So your argument is “religious people are more violent than non-religious people … but I’m going to move any violent non-religious people out of the ‘non-religious’ category and into the ‘religious’ category”.

    Forgive me, but that’s BS.

    It’s like saying “apples weigh more than pumpkins…and any pumpkin that weighs more than a typical apple will – of course – be labeled an apple, and any apple that weighs less than a typical pumpkin will – of course – be labeled a pumpkin”.

    I assert that most “true believing” atheists and leftists deny reality more than do theists. Look at some of the crazy things they believe in, despite the lack of evidence.

12. aaron Says:
    January 1st, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    [quote comment="177231"][quote comment="177225"]
    Strong modern correlation between societal levels of religiosity and violence.

    … I know the soviet union was officially atheist…built on the denial of reality.[/quote]

    So your argument is “religious people are more violent than non-religious people … but I’m going to move any violent non-religious people out of the ‘non-religious’ category and into the ‘religious’ category”.

    Forgive me, but that’s BS.

    It’s like saying “apples weigh more than pumpkins…and any pumpkin that weighs more than a typical apple will – of course – be labeled an apple, and any apple that weighs less than a typical pumpkin will – of course – be labeled a pumpkin”.

    I assert that most “true believing” atheists and leftists deny reality more than do theists. Look at some of the crazy things they believe in, despite the lack of evidence.[/quote]

    I brought up the SU as aside from the supernatural part it had many of the trappings of a religion (doctrines, strong orthodoxy, etc). I do think there are situations where it is valid to compare communism to a religion, however on the original discussion, violence, I believe the supernatural part is a major actor so you are correct and I shouldn’t have included the SU.

    On that note I did a quick google for violent crime rates in the SU and they were lower

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia

    Of course current crime rates are now higher (I don’t imagine they would have gotten that much more religious) so that’s not particularly good evidence for either side.

13. Rick C Says:
    January 2nd, 2009 at 12:36 am

    [quote comment="177291"]
    On that note I did a quick google for violent crime rates in the SU and they were lower
    [/quote]

    LOL! Because the Soviets never lied.

14. aaron Says:
    January 2nd, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    [quote comment="177312"][quote comment="177291"]
    On that note I did a quick google for violent crime rates in the SU and they were lower
    [/quote]

    LOL! Because the Soviets never lied.[/quote]

    I’m too lazy to cite stuff but the research took that into account (they also found white collar crime was much higher).